It is also true, as Mark Plus asserts, that Bible thumping, ‘old time religion’ is incompatible with a rational, scientific view of the world. What’s more, “Unperson,” you should travel more, if you can. In most of Western Europe, ‘old time religion’ is mostly vestigial, and the churches are largely being recycled, or are used as social clubs with religious trappings. If a politician so much as invoked religion in the UK, or most of Europe, he would be laughed out of office. They think people in the US are ‘crazy,’ and they are right. Buses in Germany, France and the UK sport placards on their sides advocating atheism… The world is a big and diverse place, and I can tell you that in most of the West outside the US, any appeal to Fundamentalism, or even organized religion, is the political kiss of death – literally – and this from the masses, not the elite.

Having said all that, I am well aware that I am very unlikely to change either of your opinions – and that’s OK. I’m not looking to convince any but a very few of the existing ‘base’ in cryonics and TH, and those I’ll mostly know when I see them. And when I do, I won’t care if they believe in Beelzebub or Jesus, as long as they get the important parts of behaving like a responsible and decent human being right – as well as consistently behaving as a committed cryonicist. I’m deeply amused by the Transhumanists who aspire to this vague, but presumably superior state of being, without first having mastered being human. The latter, as it turns out, is a surprisingly hard task, and one that must precede the former

Unperson, I have looked at your long, long string of repetitive posts to CF. They are non-productive. Do you expect someone to hear your message? And if they do, then what? If you want a Fundamentalist Cryonics Christian religion, then you best get your brain, as well as your arse in gear, and create it. Because you will need a theology, a liturgy, a morality, a narrative, and an eschatology – just for starters. It needn’t make much sense, and it certainly needn’t be well written; consider the Book of Mormon, or L. Ron Hubbard’s drivel. In fact, elegant writing is arguably a barrier to acceptance. The point is, stop boring us all to tears, and spend your time and efforts on doing what you say needs to be done. And if you can’t, or won’t do it, then don’t make the 1960s cryonics mistake of expecting someone else to do it for you. And stop blaming and ridiculing everyone who doesn’t agree with you, or who won’t help you.

Finally, you remind me a great deal of someone who once called himself Dave Cosenza. If you are he, then you may actually have some slight basis for presuming to tell me who I love and who I don’t. As it is, you are wrong in your assertion that I do not love the ‘common’ man, if by common, you mean people who are of modest means (or less) and who get through life one, or at most a few days at a time, and who have no intellectual pretensions. While such men have in common with all other classes and types of men the capacity for deceit, mendacity, and delight in injuring others, on average they are much less so inclined – and when they do so, they usually act without guile, and with refreshing directness.

Most work hard and play hard, and they ask little more from life than continued survival and happiness. In terms of happiness, on average, they have far outpaced the ‘elite,’ be they either the titans of intellect, or the wizards of commerce. They have the lowest suicide rate, and they are unarguably among the happiest and most satisfied people in the world. Wealth and brains are fairly strong contraindications to being happy – and those who have one or both, and who are happy, posses extraordinary insights, and very likely a favorable biological temperament, in the bargain. Thus, it may surprise you that I spend much of my time in the company of what you call ‘common men,’ and often men who society would rank far below ‘common:’ and I am here to tell you that they are anything but common, and in no way the ‘drones’ your language seems to imply how you think about them.

As I have often said before, I don’t choose a companion of any species to share my life with, based on their ability to jump through intellectual hoops, write learned tomes, or make lots of money. If those things happen to be present, which they rarely are, then that can be a bonus. But the real way we choose (or are chosen) by a dog, a man, or any other sentient being we choose to be loved by, and who choose to love us, is on the basis of their integrity, their loyalty and their fundamental goodness as a sentient being. This, in turn, makes us better people. Most of the uncommon men who wield the power in this world – in academia, business, the arts, or finance are, perhaps of necessity, most unpleasant people, who may often be fairly classified as borderline sociopaths. Their not infrequently sordid and grotesque personal lives (should they ensnare a vulnerable person), or their all too often solitary and unhappy existences, speak to this fact, far more eloquently than I ever could.

I suggest both of you look at the public diaries that you’ve been keeping. Print out and go over all your posts, and all your efforts and projects in cryonics, and then ask yourself, “What have I achieved? Have I changed anything for the better, have any of my exhortations resulted in even the smallest speck of progress?” If the answer is no, then I can only suggest you change your approach, and that you sit down and develop a solid and detailed plan, with milestones and markers tied to to real dates, and real events, in the real world – and that you proceed from there.

In the meantime, please take these kinds of exchanges back to CF, where they are welcomed, apparently enjoyed, and unarguably, where they belong.

Mike Darwin

=================

you threaten their culture, their place in society, you threaten their god, threaten their faith. It seems that all you want to do is preach to the choir, and get the approval of your peers. And reap some benefits from such.

You care little for probing deeper and solving real problems.

Ponder this quote from the movie CONAN THE BARBARIAN:

“Conan: The riddle… of steel.

Thulsa Doom: Yes! You know what it is, don’t you boy? Shall I tell you? It’s the least I can do. Steel isn’t strong, boy, flesh is stronger! Look around you. There, on the rocks; a beautiful girl. Come to me, my child…

Thulsa Doom: [coaxes the girl to jump to her death]

Thulsa Doom: That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? ”

This quote exemplifies the naive thinking behind cryonics. Science, yes, it is wonderful. But it has a long way to go. Some day it may make us immortal. But there are many a decade, many a century yet to pass. Cryonics try to appeal to the rational side of man, but in this area, there is little rationality, and that is not going to change anytime soon. Better to use the other strength of mankind, religion.

What is science and reason compared to the power of religion when it comes to the area of life after death?