Comments on: Response to Maxim’s Rant about Automation in Cardiopulmonary Bypass http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/ A revolution in time. Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1 By: Fundie http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-846 Fundie Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:37:15 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-846 I’ve often heard it said that case reports have been very inconsistent. I’ve read a haphazard sampling of Alcor case reports. They are in different styles with differing levels of information. I recommend you take a look at some of the case reports from different eras in addition to the ones you’ve already seen.

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By: Adam Selene http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-843 Adam Selene Mon, 21 Mar 2011 03:57:21 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-843 Thanks, Fundie. I looked at the latest four. They don’t have very much detail, do they? The ones from CI are much more detailed. That makes it rather difficult to compare the two. It makes me wonder if Alcor’s case reports were more detailed whether or not we might see, “the screw-ups, the incompetence, and the often grotesque errors,” that we see in the CI case reports.

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By: Fundie http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-842 Fundie Mon, 21 Mar 2011 01:56:23 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-842 Adam, you can find a lot of Alcor case reports here:

http://alcor.org/cases.html

There are a few case reports on the Alcor site that are not linked from that page; I recommend you check the sitemap and the Library to find more of them.

There are others that are not available there, but asking around can sometimes turn them up for you.

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By: Adam Selene http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-836 Adam Selene Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:16:39 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-836 “They are informed of the screw-ups, the incompetence, and the often grotesque errors, and THEY SIMPLY DO NOT CARE.”

Is it that they don’t care, or that there’s nowhere else to go? You’re aware of all the above, but you mention you’re still signed up with Alcor. What is your average Joe like me, who’s not as knowledgeable or talented as you, to do? It’s pretty much CI, Alcor or oblivion, isn’t it?

Also, you mention Ben Best’s case reports for CI, some of which I’ve seen, but where are the case reports for Alcor? Are Alcor’s case reports made public like CI’s?

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By: admin http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-609 admin Thu, 10 Mar 2011 03:30:33 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-609 Yep, still signed up with Alcor. Glad to hear you are too! Now you’ll have me poring over the old CC membership list to see if I can figure out who you are ;-). I’m a bit surprised to find you’re signed up, only because of what I perceive to be a lack of sensitivity about the welfare of patients (and members) that these attacks on cryonics over the past few years represent – granted, in my opinion :-). — Mike Darwin

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By: unperson http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-603 unperson Wed, 09 Mar 2011 23:23:13 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-603 Mike Darwin PS: I’m now willing to bet good money you are not signed up. MD

——–
you would have lost good money. I am indeed signed up, and have been for many a year. In fact, you would have been in charge of my cryopreservation back when I was a cryocare member, had I needed it. I now wear an alcor bracelet.

Are YOU signed up, Sinner?

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By: admin http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-599 admin Wed, 09 Mar 2011 20:10:24 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-599 Yes, I can send you a copy of the memo I authored after visiting SA in 2006. I do not know the current status of SA, beyond the article published by Katherine Baldwin in Cryonics, recently, and their case reports. This is very scant information from which it is not possible to draw any detailed conclusions. As an aside, I will be in Europe during the SA conference in May, so I will not be able to assess it at that time, either. I have been reliably informed that ~ $4-6 million had been spent on SA at the time I visited there in 2006. I will notify Saul Kent that I am sending you the report on a confidential basis (you can talk discuss it freely but you may not copy it without my written permission). Providing you find this agreeable, you will receive a redacted copy of the memo – names of some employees have been removed to protect their privacy regarding my PERSONAL assessment of individuals’ psychologies and job performance.

I’ve lost track of how many uncompleted research projects Alcor has launched and failed to complet, or report upon. One costly example was their extensive tooling to do rodent cardiopulmonary bypass (CPB), as well as to establish a dog research (CPB) capability. The rodent CPB facility was opened to the public, and photographs were permitted. If you like, I can send you the photos I made of that facility, and you can form your own judgment of the costs. [If others are interested, I can pour these things into a pdf and post the URL here.] Channa, and possibly Aschwin deWolf were, I believe, employed to do this work, however I have been told that they found the environment at Alcor intolerable, and left before any survival animals were recovered, or significant research progress, per se (beyond developing the model) was made.

I have little visibility into EUCRIO, but I can tell you they have wasted money on some purchases already – the Autopulse CPR device, being one example. The Autopulse is also used by SA; it is effectively useless for long duration CPS in cryonics patients.

Aschwin de Wolf has made something of a “hobby” or perhaps study out of monitoring gross waste of this kind in cryonics, and he has come up with a conclusion, with which I largely agree, that the more money you throw at cryonics (in general) the LESS results you will get. In other words, it is not just that the results don’t scale with the increased funding, but rather that positive return decreases, grinds to a halt, and result can actually become harmful! It’s seem to operate somewhat analogously to government involvement in astronautics. They spend massive amounts of money, produce dangerous garbage that fails in all of its primary missions (e.g., the Shuttle), AND they serve as a spoiler for the creation of viable alternatives. The latter is particularly pernicious. These examples are just the tip of the iceberg. I wish Aschwin would write an article about these observations and his synthesis and let me publish here on Chronosphere or, failing that, that he post it on Depressed Metabolism.

You know, for many years in cryonics people have wished for two things with both great longing and great frequency: 1) that a really famous person get’s frozen, and 2) that millionaires start pumping money into cryonics. All of this reminds me of the quote from St. Theresa of Avila: “Answered prayers cause more tears than those that remain unanswered”. — Mike Darwin

Alcor also spent a fair sum on intermediate temperature storage hardware; this was carried out under the watch of Charles Platt, who’s engineering

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By: Mark Plus http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-594 Mark Plus Wed, 09 Mar 2011 17:05:50 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-594 I think I know part of the answer. Which cryonicists have spent a lot money counter-productively, and can you provide some examples of their misallocation of resources?

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By: admin http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-593 admin Wed, 09 Mar 2011 16:26:07 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-593 Thanks for this post. I’ve a touch of cabin fever. I was supposed to “go walk about” some days ago, but I got two books thru the mail that I couldn’t put down, and I got hooked on trying to figure out the relationship between Ted Williams’ cryopreservation and the trajectory of cryonics within the sphere of Google Ngram technology. So, I did a bad thing, and stayed home. Now it’s just me and the dog and the cat – and we are all edgy about being confined to quarters – my partner is out 4-wheel driving and backpacking till Sunday – something I found about as appetizing as the rest of here – namely about as much fun as sticking our paws in a mound of red hot coals. I should have walked down to Highway 62 with my “sign du jour” (which would have been: “Need a ride to San Diego: Do you want to discuss Quantum Computing?”) and hitched a ride to San Diego, days ago. But, I didn’t, and your post gave me a good, long laugh, and that’s not a bad way to start any day.

For the record, nobody has ever been “King of cryonics,” and the only person I know of who made a serious effort at it, was Bob Nelson. Art Quaife made a very serious effort to be the CEO of the IBM of cryonics (his words, not mine) in 1970-1980s, and Ettinger has had a long and uncontested run as the de Heer of “cryonics as ritual,” in his fiefdom within cryonics, but nobody has been king. The reason that we can know that is so is instructive, and is best understood by visiting places where people are kings or dictators.

When I get off the plane in a strange land, or walk out of the port from the ship I’ve arrived on, I can almost always tell within 10 minutes if I am in a particular kind of “bad” place. This is possible, because on the way into any city of any size, you will see 3-story high pictures of the “Dear Leader, El Maximo, Chairman Mao, or Beloved Momar. My impression is that these Kings all use the same artist. Alternatively, there may be a Dictator Portraiture School of Art, where people go to study for the job. The portraits of Mubarak that so recently graced every city of any size in Egypt (but especially in Cairo), look as if they were painted by the same artist who did the ones for Stalin, Mao, or L. Ron Hubbard. I mean, have you looked at those gianormous Scientology renderings of him? Creepy. Jesus seems to have had the same artist, as well, as the various Maharishis…

Cryonics never had that – although I did make up a large, Clark metal, chrome framed portrait of Ettinger, a little in that style, which, (last I saw), still hangs in the lobby at Alcor. Alas, there are no portraits of me anywhere, nor pictures either, and I suspected there won’t be, unless I am lucky enough to get one of those 8x10s they give you when you are pushing up bubbles in liquid nitrogen. And yes, I have mine already picked out.

There are as many flavors of anger as there are of ice cream – and that’s a lot more than even Baskin-Robbins has. There is also good anger and bad anger. The Jesuits taught me many important and useful things, not the least of which was that “a loss of temper is a loss of control.” Do not mistake righteous anger for a loss temper – and never make the mistake of demonizing emotion: because it is a strong expression of values and desires. Reason is impotent without emotion. If you wish to understand my anger, you should meditate upon this quote: “Personally I think we are obserivng the last crys from a very damaged cryonics industry before it dies completely. In 10 years i think there will be a few dewars around but no active companies once regulation hits them. Thres no conspiracy i suspect to make cryonics a billion $ industry – its too shabby and the companies left are barely keeping themselves afloat let alone in LN2 – Chatsworth 21st century style is on the cards and once regulatory officials look at these cryonics firms properly they will shut them down and prosecute the organizers” Illiterate as it is, it is a threat against defenseless people that I love. And while that makes me angry, it does not make me lose control. Control and anger – well, they are a very, very dangerous combination – especially when added to knowledge, skill, and a willingness to defend the things you love at any cost. — Mike Darwin PS: I’m now willing to bet good money you are not signed up. MD

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By: admin http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/02/26/response-to-maxim%e2%80%99s-rant-about-automation-in-cardiopulmonary-bypass/#comment-592 admin Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:25:30 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=332#comment-592 Mark, I’m not sure what your question is? Rephrase — Mike Darwin

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