Comments on: Pearl http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/ A revolution in time. Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1 By: Simon http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-901 Simon Fri, 25 Mar 2011 07:28:23 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-901 Mark Plus,
You say Eliezer Yudkowsky is now on your list of transhumanist cranks.
What list would you place Peter Thiel on, and what’s your general opinion of him?
I’d say Peter Thiel is…persuasive. Technocracy and syndicalism have been appealing to me for 6 years now. It wasn’t until the past 12 months that I decided to add private property rights and enterprise into my ideological mix. Peter Thiel is largely responsible for that. He’s written some great articles about economic freedom. The soundbite for my political-economic ideology is now “Technocracy with enterprise and co-ops.” It used to be, “Technocratic syndicalism.”

]]>
By: Simon http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-900 Simon Fri, 25 Mar 2011 07:14:38 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-900 Mark Plus:
for your reading pleasure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Scream

There’s nothing wrong with being afraid of going to a new school, or ditching it and not ever going.

]]>
By: Simon http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-879 Simon Wed, 23 Mar 2011 22:26:38 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-879 Luke Parrish, thanks. I’ll check out lesswrong.com and maybe post a question in a couple weeks.
Mark Plus, you should get into the habit of using more “neutral” phrasings. I struggle with that myself sometimes. We can’t win “hearts and minds” by using divisive language. Also, there’s nothing wrong with being afraid of going to a new school, or ditching it and not ever going…
Lastly, what is your general opinion of Peter Thiel? I’m curious.

]]>
By: Luke Parrish http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-878 Luke Parrish Wed, 23 Mar 2011 21:52:40 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-878 How much rationality literature have you produced lately, Mark? You can’t just label people into little square boxes of good and bad.

]]>
By: Mark Plus http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-868 Mark Plus Wed, 23 Mar 2011 01:43:21 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-868 I would also like to say that I’ve added Eliezer Yudkowsky to my shit-list of transhumanist cranks with his apocalyptic nonsense about AI’s. He needs to grow up and get a real job, instead of apparently living as one of Peter Thiel’s clients and sycophants.

]]>
By: Mark Plus http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-867 Mark Plus Wed, 23 Mar 2011 01:36:09 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-867 >I do NOT want to be around if AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) get out of control and decide to start vivisecting and experimenting on humans. Humans dissect everything in order to understand it. Why wouldn’t AGI do the same?

Oh, because they might have really advanced MRI’s?

I’ve seen some expressions of social anxiety projected into the future as reasons not to get cryonically suspended, but yours reads like an Onion parody. In general these objections make me think of a kid who fears going to a new school: What if the kids at the new school don’t like me? What if they won’t let me play with them? What if they laugh at me?

You’ve just added: What if they want to vivisect me?

]]>
By: Mark Plus http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-866 Mark Plus Wed, 23 Mar 2011 01:12:31 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-866 >Unfortunately for progress in cryonics, many Christians believe their souls go to heaven upon death

I don’t see how “going to heaven” solves anything. What if you get to heaven, then you rebel against god? Perhaps god intends for you to rebel; you just drew the short stray in god’s greater plan.

And does going to the orthodox version of hell, by contrast, really sound that bad? At least it would show that your earthly life had meaning.

Universalism and Annihilationism have both tried to make hell go away, but neither has become a mainstream christian doctrine. Annihilationism, which teaches that the damned simply vanish into oblivion, sounds WAY too much like the Epicurean theory of the fate of the dead which allegedly deprives our earthly lives of “meaning.” Apparently many if not most christians want to keep hell because, as I’ve pointed out above, it serves an important function in their meaning-of-life construct.

]]>
By: Luke Parrish http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-864 Luke Parrish Wed, 23 Mar 2011 00:13:10 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-864 Thank you for your heartfelt contribution to this conversation. This article made me want to cry as well… And angry about the poor care our elders receive. I agree also that the term “create mass appeal” does capture what we need to do (and what I regard as a personal mission of sorts) much better than the words “sell cryonics”. It’s not about the money, at least for me.

If you have questions about AGI vivisecting people I’d recommend trying to put them into as concrete of an argument as possible and submitting it to lesswrong.com to see if they say something that will change your mind. My take on it is that there’s not much reason for AGI to literally vivisect anyone (since they don’t stand to gain any useful information by doing so), but they might put people in painful situations for other reasons (to determine their reaction under stress, or — worst case scenario — because they value and wish to maximize human pain). A much bigger (in terms of statistical likelihood) risk from AGI is that it will value something other than humans (such as paperclips) and go on to produce it and kill us in the process.

That is all equally subject to the assumption that AGI is possible in principle, which I’m not 100% sure about. But from a utilitarian point of view, it seems like if AGI is a credible threat that implies we should be investing resources in Friendliness. That cryonicists are more threatened than non-cryonicists implies that cryonicists have more motive to be address the issue. So perhaps one of the smartest / most ethical things you can do (under the assumption that the AGI threat is real) is to convince people to sign up for cryonics.

]]>
By: Simon http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-844 Simon Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:43:37 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-844 unperson wrote:
“Very touching and inspiring. At least to us cryonicists.
But there you go again–preaching to the choir.
Preach to the masses, Mike. You cannot touch them through the screen of the cryonics-death-immortality taboo. If you want to touch and inspire the masses, you are going to have to find another route.”

I believe a better phrasing of unperson’s comment is: “There are many people that you won’t be able to [bring into the fold of cryonics advocacy] by invoking the promise of avoidance of death/loss, and especially not with blunt invocation of the promise of “immortality,” which is taboo among many people . This heart-warming “Pearl” essay did a good job avoiding the latter. However, we could inspire and bring more people into the fold of cryonics if [compassion/ avoidance of suffering in poor health] were equally emphasized as the possibility of avoiding death/loss. Also, it would help to mention some spiritual/ religious issues, and demonstrate how they are not incompatible with cryonics.” (see my last two paragraphs for that).

“The ‘screen’ of the cryonics-death-immortality taboo” was a poor choice of words, but don’t get lost on the validity of unperson’s point. If you’re true believers in cryonics, you should advocate it and try to create mass enthusiasm for cryonics. unperson isn’t suggesting conspiring or huckster “selling of” cryonics. Just consider it: creating mass appeal.

For example, there is more appeal to me in the avoidance of suffering than in the prolonging of life. The essay was very touching; I cried. I think it would “touch” just about anyone, but not necessarily inspire or “convert” to cryonics advocacy. I’m NOT interested in vitrification/cryopreservation for myself. You should attempt to create mass appeal, convert the masses, and convert people like me. You need to figure out how to create the appeal. The more quickly cryonics R&D reaches “critical mass,” the more quickly reanimation will become feasible.

Assisted suicide, euthanasia, and cryonics –to a utilitarian such as myself– are all “blessings” to humanity because they can prevent the deplorable quality of life and wasting away of mind and body that presently comes with old age.
Personally, I much prefer euthanasia and assisted suicide to cryonics. I have no faith in future SOCIETY to revive me in a better, future world. “The future” sometimes scares me more than it inspires and excites me. As a child I dreamed of living for thousands of years and exploring space.
But economic, technological, and social reality scare me more and more with each passing year.
Suicide + incineration is my present plan for avoiding suffering.

I apologize if this is too vivid for you, but: If I reach old age in poor health –longevity isn’t enough for me, quality of life is everything– I’m definitely going to committ suicide and I’m not going to seek vitrification/ cryopreservation. Maybe I’ll bring a barrel of gasoline out to a remote desert location, hop in, hold a cigarette lighter in one hand and put a bullet in my head with the other hand. If all goes to plan, my body will be incinerated.
I do NOT want to be around if AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) get out of control and decide to start vivisecting and experimenting on humans. Humans dissect everything in order to understand it. Why wouldn’t AGI do the same?

However, I fully intend to live indefinitely and perhaps for thousands of years.
I intend to help develop cures/preventions for diseases, including aging.
But I sleep with a gun under my pillow and I’m ready to end my life in an instant if I anticipate intense or prolonged suffering.
If a small majority of Earth’s population were to become cryonics enthusiasts, conduct more R&D, and develop better prospects for reanimation in a future society with good quality of life, then I might consider cryonics myself. But for now, suicide + incineration seems a better option to avoid suffering.

To promote adoption of cryonics in “Western Civilization,” you should consider the fact that more than 50% of the USA are Christian, and many Europeans.
A large majority of the world’s population are religious or “spiritual” and lean towards belief in an afterlife.
Vitrification in the present and reanimation in the future would allow us to avoid death/loss, and if or when “God” decides to bring a complete end to mortal existence, obviously no one will avoid that fate, and we’d likely be even better off in the afterlife than in reanimation. If there is a God, I doubt He or It would be so petty and cruel as to condemn most of humanity to “hell”.
However, reanimation may never become technically possible or “the world” could end before it does. It’s very important to stress the COMPASSION that cryonics provides.

Unfortunately for progress in cryonics, many Christians believe their souls go to heaven upon death, although “limbo” is more in accordance with scripture and doctrine.
Emphasize that cryonics is a “suspended animation” –not unlike “limbo.”
Emphasize that by utilizing cryonics we can avoid suffering from disease (young or old) and avoid dementia and neglect in old age,
and might be able to enjoy more life in the future.
Heaven likely is not/ “might not” be available to us directly upon death. Limbo is what’s waiting after death.
According to scripture and doctrine, there is a “general resurrection” of all the dead; then all the living and un-dead are judged; some go to heaven; some go to “hell.”
Cryonics won’t change any of that.

]]>
By: Abelard Lindsey http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/03/05/pearl/#comment-564 Abelard Lindsey Wed, 09 Mar 2011 00:20:10 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=424#comment-564 No, I don’t think the Roissy model (in any form) is valid for cryonics. Roissy is something best left alone in the context of this discussion.

]]>