Comments on: Interventive Gerontology 1.0.02: First, Try to Make it to the Mean: Diet as a life extending tool, Part 3 http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/ A revolution in time. Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1 By: Perry Metzger http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3789 Perry Metzger Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:54:13 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3789 Mike;

Thank you so much for writing this. I’ve been saying this quietly more and more to my friends hopping on the Paleo bandwagon, and it has been hard getting anyone to listen terribly much.

Reasoning from evidence is the core of science. The evidence for Paleo pales in comparison for the evidence for the Mediterranean diet and variations on it. I can’t for the life of me understand how so many intelligent, thinking people have jumped off a cliff together. Perhaps it is some sort of herd mentality in action.

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By: admin http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3710 admin Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:57:00 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3710 I suppose it depends on how you define evil, and how you hold people accountable for it. All three men had in common a willingness, if not an eagerness to ruthlessly and casually kill people who had not just been personally close to them, but who had enabled their rise to power. Hitler first did this on a large scale with the ‘Night of the Long Knives,’ when he disposed of most of the leadership of the SA – primarily because they were unacceptable to the Army, whose support was essential to his consolidation of power. Stalin murdered just about everyone who was close to him, including, ultimately, Beriia. Mao was no different. All three men were mass murderers on an epic scale. Arguably, Hitler and Mao were motivated, to some extent, by a “genuine” belief in the bankrupt ideologies they advocated. There can be little doubt that Hitler genuinely believed in the tenets of Nazism (including a genuine belief that the Jews were responsible for Germany’s troubles; past,present and future). Mao, similarly, appears to have believed in the communist ideology he espoused. The best evidence is that Hitler had no plans for systematic Jewish genocide until the problem of “relocation to the East” became insurmountable. Some might therefore argue that “the Ultimate Solution” was a simple an artifact of expediency – a kind of negligence based upon the unwillingness of other nation-states to accept the “vermin” Hitler was trying to force out of Germany, coupled with the exigencies of war and the attendant poverty of resources… This is an argument I find ridiculous.

By contrast, Stalin appears to have been a “pure psychopath,” concerned only with his own survival, and it seems likely he would have been as at home in any ideological, political or social system which allowed him unfettered access to power the Mafia or the Soviet Union – either would have suited him just fine).

Similarly, all three men were responsible for millions of deaths as “collateral” to their central actions. The millions who died as an “indirect” result of Hitler’s actions in WWII, the millions who died in the de-kulakization of Ukraine, and the millions who died as a result of Mao’s decision making, from the Long March onward, might be viewed as “negligence.” Might be, but again, not by me. In terms of raw numbers of deaths, intended or otherwise, Mao was the clear leader, followed by Stalin, and then Hitler. Both men deliberately and knowingly condemned millions to death, torture, and years of interment under brutal conditions of privation, torture and utter hopelessness. Stalin seems to have been the most arbitrary and “irrational” in his actions in this regard, followed by Hitler and Mao. But negligence? No, nowhere does negligence enter the picture. If you want to appreciate the sheer magnitude of Mao’s knowing evil, I strongly recommend two books: MAO: THE UNKNOWN STORY and WILD SWANS, both by Chang and Halliday. These two books were well researched and draw heavily on first-hand accounts of Mao’s life and actions. THE UNKNOWN STORY was ten years in the writing.

My problem in assigning “blame” in the case of these three men is that it is largely an exercise empty of meaning, except for any utility it may have in understanding the underlying psychopathology present in these men and perhaps, in finding a way to prevent or treat it in the future. Otherwise, it is a sterile exercise, akin to trying to determining how many devils can dance on the head of a pinpoint of empathy and humanity. — Mike Darwin.

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By: Abelard Lindsey http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3701 Abelard Lindsey Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:35:14 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3701 I always thought Stalin was worse than Hitler. I consider Mao to be more guilty of criminal negligence than anything else.

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By: Shannon Vyff http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3587 Shannon Vyff Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:08:59 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3587 Darwin does not work at Alcor, but knows people there, he also is one of the handful of people that know enough about cryonics that they could help run an organizations, do suspensions and contribute to research.

I don’t think Max has been at Alcor long enough at all to be able to evaluate how he is doing yet. He has been more public, which has been nice.

It is disheartening to find out about the backgrounds of many in cryonics, but thankfully not all are highly eccentric or on the fringe of normal society. It is a very small community however, there are not a lot of members to draw from for leadership (less than 2000 signed cryonicists). It has been growing over time, but really anyone who starts to delve into how cryonics is run realizes they either have to help out, or make do with how things are.

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By: admin http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3529 admin Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:57:13 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3529 Ha, ha!

Mark, I would point out that there is a difference between cognitive impairment and moral impairment. I don’t think the impairment in Cheney’s cognition had nearly as much impact on his actions as the impairment in his morality. The vast majority of 60 year old men have suffered much more cognitive impairment from aging than would be incurred from an hour or so on the heart lung machine. Of course, they ARE additive… But remember, Cheney’s actions and ideology are not unique to Cheney, or not men with severe heart disease and a history of CABG. — Mike Darwin

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By: admin http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3528 admin Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:49:49 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3528 Ummm. I guess that’s relative. He has done quite well with his LVAD, and my guess would be he’ll take a heart if he can get one. He will be on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno this Friday hawking his book. If he refuses a heart transplant he will have a comparatively short life with an LVAD. I’m assuming he received the Thoratec HeartMate II, which has a mean survival rate of 68% at one year and 58% at 2 years for patients with end-stage CHF. If Cheney got a good match, which is mostly chance with hearts (normally there isn’t time to do high quality tissue typing and the match is by ABO blood group alone; of course, if you could, say, screen thousands of healthy young men, one of whom might have a bad accident or bullet wound to the brain, you could potentially find a perfect D locus match… nah, nobody’s that evil…) and altered his diet, he could conceivably live another decade – or longer. The 10-year survival rate is ~50 percent and ~15 percent of heart transplant patients survive ~20 years. Watching LVAD patients die is fascinating, because the majority of them die of infections. Those that survive the first year, and especially those that go out past 2 years, often experience a preceding period of wasting decline which reminds me a great deal of the end stage of AIDS. LVAD support compromises cellular immunity via down-regulatory cytokine imbalance and emergence of suppressive T-regulatory cells. This kind impaired T-cell immunity is a shared featured with HIV infection and LVAD patients get some of the same weird fungal infections seen AIDS; lots of thrush and systemic candida. However, unlike AIDS patients, LVAD patients also get gram negative infections including sepsis. One theory is that the profound immunosuppression seen in LVAD recipients is due to leaching of the titanium ion into blood/tissues primarily from the impeller and housing of the pump. I’m not convinced of this, but in any event, it remains a fascinating problem because infection secondary to LVAD induced immunosuppression is currently THE barrier to long term survival with an LVAD. Crack that nut and survival could climb to 5 years or more. That would cause real fiscal chaos because the number of potential LVAD recipients would climb to 50K a year, or more. One “nice” subjective side effect of LVAD implantation is that most patients remark that their various age associated aches and pains go away. This is due to the profound suppression of proinflammatory cytokines, like TNF and IL-6. — Mike Darwin

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By: Mark Plus http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3507 Mark Plus Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:07:06 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3507 Considering that Cheney acted as the de facto president, with Bush as a kind of mikado figurehead, you have to wonder if Cheney’s health problems cognitively impaired him.

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By: gwern http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3506 gwern Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:46:14 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3506 Pretty badly apparently: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Dick_cheney#Health_problems

Wikipedia seems to be incomplete; I remember reading the other day an article on his new autobiography which said he had spent something like a week unconscious after one of the surgeries. Which certainly doesn’t sound good.

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By: Bob Fordice http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3490 Bob Fordice Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:49:50 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3490 Hi. You didn’t answer my question about how the people who run Alcor know that Max More is doing a good job. When I asked questions on the cold filter chat about who the people were who that thought Mike Darwin was bad for cryonics my questions never showed up and I never got an answer. Do you work at Alcor or are you friends with the staff there or the management there?

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By: admin http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/20/interventive-gerontology-1-0-02-first-try-to-make-it-to-the-mean-diet-as-a-life-extending-tool-part-3/#comment-3483 admin Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:45:56 +0000 http://chronopause.com/?p=1186#comment-3483 Clinton is the classic, medically indicated candidate for the Ornish diet (which is a better designed diet in terms of fats). This is a guy with one bypass under his belt and recurrent coronary disease in just a few years while being on a statin. Typically, that type of patient progresses to intervention after intervention until they either die from a MI acutely, or die from congestive heart failure (CHF) after becoming a cardiac cripple. Cancer, providing there is no loss of local control, is an easy death by comparison. If he remains compliant on the diet, controls his BP, and is medicated for mood problems as needed, he should make it to the mean lifespan without problems. If he gets cancer – well, a far better death that it is than CHF and he will probably have lived longer. I wonder how Darth, er, I mean Dick Cheney is doing these days? — Mike Darwin

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